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Orpik (concussion) skates; Thornton hearing set for today

Dec 13, 2013, 10:57 AM EDT

orpikstretcherap AP

A good sign in Pittsburgh — Brooks Orpik (concussion) skated this morning with other injured Penguins (Rob Scuderi and Tanner Glass) prior to the rest of their teammates’ game-day skate ahead of tonight’s contest with New Jersey.

Orpik won’t play versus the Devils, and there’s no timetable for his return. But today was a step forward in his recovery nonetheless.

Meanwhile, Boston’s Shawn Thornton is set to have his disciplinary hearing later today for injuring Orpik on Saturday.

Related: Crosby predicts 10 games for Thornton

  1. mclovinhockey - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:04 AM

    Just curious, if Orpik got back up and played the rest of the game, how many games you think Thornton would get for a slew foot and two gloves punches to the face?

    • joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:32 AM

      Not much! Refer to the CBA. The league reserves the right to use the results of an illegal action to justify the number of games.

    • gmanonthird - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:50 AM

      None. It would have been like any other scrum.

      To me it looked like Thornton held him up when tripping him, so I don’t get the focus on a slew foot.

      • joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:57 AM

        Really! And what was Dupuis trying to do?

    • bigrboland - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:10 PM

      Doesn’t matter because he didn’t get back up and play the rest of the game. What Thornton did was extremely dirty. PERIOD! Slewfooting is very dangerous and hitting a player while he’s down is cowardly. These players have to stop with the retaliation after a clean hit. And I don’t care what the Boston fans think, that was a clean hit. And before you say Orpik was a coward for not “answering the bell”, think about if you’d want the best defenseman on your team to take a 5 minute penalty when you’re already short defensemen.

      • greenmtnboy31 - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:31 PM

        You lost every Boston fan toward the end as soon as you said, “think”.

      • pepper2011 - Dec 13, 2013 at 5:17 PM

        It was dirty and he will be punished.

        I disagree though – it was kind of cowardly for not to answer for the hit. I’ve stated this before; I think it was the Neal knee that set Thornton off. It was two B’s hurt on what they believed were at the very least questionable, and Thornton went to one of the Captains. What he did was wrong, but he went to a guy his size. He didn’t try it with Sid or Kunitz, he went to the guy who is the same size.

        The stars have to be protected. Clean hit or not; Orpik needs to answer for that.

        I am assuming your argument will be it was a clean hit and Orpik isn’t a fighter. Well, Eriksson isn’t a hitter, and he isn’t clear of getting hit.There is no pass for him. If Boychuk hit Sid like that; I promise you Engellend would have be right there challenging him, and Boychuk would have obliged. All Orpik need to do was wrestle with him, or grab Campbell if Thornton was too much of a mismatch.

        It was the first 10 minute of the game. and really the first 5 when he first tried to engage him. I think your argument about not wanting to lose him would have some legs if it were later in the game.

        and… Everyone for years had called out Chara/Lucic and company for not fighting guys who are generally far less important to their teams success, so although I understand what you are saying it seems a bit hypocritical.

        Look up the time when Ballard crushed Geno and Sid went after him. Most guys understand it’s part of the game.

        It happened with Keith the other night, I think it was Simmonds. If you target the other teams stars; clean or not- you have to answer.

      • mclovinhockey - Dec 17, 2013 at 9:25 AM

        I agree it was dirty, slewfooting is very dangerous… I have seen many stars get away with it from Subban, to Subban, to Crosby and even Subban, but there has only been 1 suspension in recent NHL history for a slwefoot, and that was in 09. Also yes, punching a player when he is down is also very cowardly, I see it happen all the time (usually in fights so its fisted punches which are much worse), but very very few times do I see a suspension happen for it.
        It was very dirty, but the suspension was all in the injury, hence why I am asking “What if Orpik was okay”

  2. steelers88 - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:19 AM

    What 5 or 6 games.

    • mclovinhockey - Dec 17, 2013 at 9:28 AM

      more than Neal? Minus the injury I would rather take 2 punches in the face with a padded glove from Ivan Drago, rather than a hard plastic covered knee to the side of the head.

  3. enollatsknarf - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:24 AM

    im sure the pens will make him fall during skate and blame it on thorntorn so he gets a bigger suspension! all part of the conspiracy against my BASTAN FACKIN’ BRUINS! if sidney had neva made a mean face at martchand we woulda neva had to sucka punch nobody


    • bigrboland - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:12 PM

      Wow! Can you say unintelligent douche?

  4. bruinspaw - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:25 AM

    Anyone know what time it’s actually scheduled for or just a random waiting game?

    • supercoop8 - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:29 AM

      I think the hearing is at 1.

      • joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:52 AM

        You are correct as reported on another site.

        “The Boston Bruins forward will have an in-person hearing with the NHL department of player safety at 1 p.m. ET Friday for his actions a week ago against the Pittsburgh Penguins.. “

    • joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:35 AM

      It’s not just a random waiting… or maybe it is… See the take offered by TSN’s Legal Analyst. I posted this on the morning skate article and I’m adding it here because more contributors will stop by this article and may find the article interesting.

      While we wait for the NHL’s decision TSN’s legal analyst offers his take on why it’s taking so long for the decision to come down.

      • joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:53 AM

        WTF, a thumbs down this… Wow! :-) Reveal yourself! Now! LOL!

  5. montrealbbr - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:47 AM

    I will cross my fingers and hope he is tossed for the rest of the season. Clean up the game.

    • joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:56 AM

      Really! He’s not the poster child for the reason why the league needs to clean up the game. Using him as the goat only demonstrates your lack of credibility.

      • greenmtnboy31 - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:05 PM

        He is now after his cowardly move. Using him as an example of the type of conduct that is clearly over the line would send a good message to the rest of the league. If it’s not a minimum of 25 games then we’ll know the league really isn’t serious about this kind of cowardly conduct.

      • joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:13 PM

        Oh! Relax! Don’t get overly emotional. One extremely bad action doesn’t make him the poster child. Yes! These sorts of actions have to stop. I too at first thought it would be 20 games, which is what Bertuzzi got for his attack on Moore. Based on the consequences of assault, and reading the CBA I no longer believe he will get 20 games or more. The NHL doesn’t react emotionally. They will use the rule book, CBA, league and player history, and seriousness of the injury, and lawyers to make this decision.

      • greenmtnboy31 - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:27 PM


        Whether you agree or not and whether you like it or not, Shawn Thornton is now the poster child for the reason the league needs to clean up the game. He alone has given the league a big black eye.

        You can sit back and relax, they won’t be calling to get your opinion on this since you lack any credibility.

        All you need to do is sit back and see if the league is really serious about cleaning up this garbage. I’m guessing not, based on the fact that the league debated as long as they did about something as simple as taking cheap headshots out of the game. That was a no-brainer, but then again, we have people, like you, who are running the league and handing out discipline with insufficient brain capacity to see what it obvious and what gets them emotionally charged up.

      • joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:44 PM

        He alone! See! That’s what I mean about being emotional. You’re losing your objectivity. Kaleta’s rec’d 10 game for a head hit with no injury, but he was a multiple offender. Scott got 7 games also for a head hit (causing a concussion) and while he had no previous suspensions. So, I hardly think that “he alone” is accurate. Rafi Torres rec’d 25, then reduced to 21 games. So, if you’re right both the league and you have credibility and if I’m right the league and I have no credibility. Like I said. Chill! Relax a little.

      • pepper2011 - Dec 13, 2013 at 5:43 PM



        They also won’t be asking your opinion.

        It was an awful play and an awful choice by Thornton, but 99/100 he gets a fat lip and the Pens go on the PP for 2-4 minutes, and that’s it. It was clear his intention was not to knock him out. It happened, so he needs to be held accountable, but if you can look, and listen to his post game interview and believe that Thornton wanted to do. You really lose all credibility and objectivity. He did a dumb thing and the worst case scenario happened.

        What Neal did was intended to Injure Marchand. it didn’t, it hurt him. Neal got very lucky. The results of those incidents could have VERY easily been reversed.

        The result of what Thornton did was worse, Thus the punishment should be, but if think that is the problem with the game, and are ignoring what Neal did first (and skated directly to the safety of his bench) then you have some serious comprehension issues.

        Be objective, just try.

        You can hate Thornton all you want, but the guy has done the hardest job in the game for 500+ games over the more than a decade and has never been suspended or fined. The guy did a stupid thing, but he is not the problem.

        10-12 games because of injury which was bad, but like I have said before. Dupuis cost Kelly 6 weeks and he used his stick as a weapon. He knew what he was doing; if you have ever played; you would know it’s nearly impossible to slash a guy hard enough to break his leg if you are not trying to.

    • kovodisc - Dec 13, 2013 at 12:00 PM

      You honesty think he will be gone of the rest of the season?

      That’s one way of showing everyone on here you don’t know anything about hockey.

    • thesportsjudge - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:31 PM

      If you want Thornton gone for the year, how about Emelin after the elbow?

  6. joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 11:50 AM

    from the CBA

    18.2 General. It is the parties’ intention to impose Supplementary Discipline for On-Ice Conduct in a swift, effective and consistent manner with respect to conduct proscribed by League Playing Rules, including the use of excessive and unnecessary force and reckless acts resulting in injury. In doing so, however, the parties do not intend to alter the basic fabric of our game. In deciding on Supplementary Discipline for On-Ice Conduct, the following factors will be taken into account:

    (a) The type of conduct involved: conduct in violation of League Playing Rules, and whether the conduct is intentional or reckless, and involves the use of excessive and unnecessary force. Players are responsible for the consequences of their actions.

    (b) Injury to the opposing Player(s) involved in the incident.


    • greenmtnboy31 - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:14 PM

      That would indicate a lengthy suspension is in order, perhaps even the rest of the season.

      “the use of excessive and unnecessary force and reckless acts resulting in injury”….”whether the conduct is intentional or reckless, and involves the use of excessive and unnecessary force.”

      They emphasize four things in particular –
      > excessive – no doubt about that, when you consider it was Thornton chasing him around because of a clean hit; most definitely excessive.
      > unnecessary – again, no doubt here, see above.
      > reckless acts – slew footing someone from behind is not only reckless, it is cowardly.
      > injury – using excessive & unnecessary force that injures someone becase of your reckless and cowardly slew foot deserves a lengthy suspension.

      Five games for being excessive, another five for being unnecessary, another five for the reckless act and tag on 10 for the injury; minimum 25 games.

      • thesportsjudge - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:32 PM

        Did Scott get 20 for his hit on Erikkson?

  7. tlndma - Dec 13, 2013 at 12:12 PM

    Is the reason Orpik has avoided fights, his concussion history? Seems to me he got his “bell rung” on a not so big of a hit from Lucic in last years playoffs. Thorntons gloved punches didn’t seem overly dangerous.

    • joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 12:14 PM

      Thornton used his elbows to hit Orpik. Maybe it’s only me, but that’s what I saw.

      • michiganhockey11 - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:23 PM

        As in what you’d see watching UFC? I’ll have to catch the replay again. I too was wondering what actually caused him to get knocked out because the replay from at least 1 view wasn’t so great. Though I suppose if you catch a guy in the right spot, it doesn’t take much force.

      • joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:34 PM

        Yeah! Check the following video at the 45 and 55 second mark. Definitely looks like it was an elbow and the blow that knocked out Orpik.

    • bigrboland - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:14 PM

      Orpik is a a PROFESSIONAL hockey player….not a goon.

  8. htdave - Dec 13, 2013 at 12:51 PM

    No elbows at all. He did catch the second punch straight on the cheek though. Probably smudged his eye liner….

    • joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 12:57 PM

      Why do you know that would smudge his eye liner? Are you a female?

  9. muckleflugga - Dec 13, 2013 at 12:51 PM

    penguins must have sent brooks orpik to marian hossa’s doctor…in lourdes

    a place where blind people hobble in on crutches, missing a leg and arm, deaf, black, female…but come out looking and dancing like a nineteen year old fred astaire, desirous of a siren like ginger rogers, whole again…

    brooks orpik, master turtle and diver extraordinaire

    hockey meet farce

    • bigrboland - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:16 PM

      You obviously know nothing about Brooks Orpik so your comments/opinions on him mean nothing.

    • greenmtnboy31 - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:16 PM

      Did they have to send him to that Doctor because Dr. Recchi wasn’t available?

      • jpelle82 - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:32 PM

        ha. laughed out loud on that one

  10. michiganhockey11 - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:21 PM

    What time is the hearing today, anybody know?

    Glad he’s at least able to skate, but slewfooting a guy is pretty bush-league. Clear intent to injure. In Reggie Dunlop’s day, they’d take care of a guy who did that…..

  11. muckleflugga - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:40 PM


    i have played hockey for many years. i played when we used straight blades. i played before players wore helmets. i’ve been in hockey fights and flat-out brwals, some involving fans coming on the ice and joining the fray

    i never saw anyone leave the ice with more than a few scrapes or a bloody nose…no one did the worm, jitterbug, or called an ambulance

    i’ve watched orpik’s play since he turned pro. he habitually tackles smaller players, rarely in open ice and usually by slamming them into the boards

    i can’t recall seeing him give big men a second look, or hang around to look anyone in the eye after a gooning…he’s always looking for nickels

    the slew-foot and punches from thornton were everyday give-and-take thuggery that has been selling tickets to live games and selling advertising space on televised games since the sixties

    we see punch-ups in every game…the punches orpik took would not have felled another player in the nhl, let alone precipitated the shameless display by orpik, or the posturing in his defense by penguins after the fact

    yet, after the hammering of eriksson, he deserved a right good kicking, this following accepted league practice of self-policing

    orpik’s behaviour was farcical, and embarrassed the game as much as did thornton’s

    now, tell me what you know about hockey or orpik

    • bigrboland - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:59 PM

      Wow, you sound really tough. I couldn’t care less if you played garbage hockey, which is basically what you’ve explained. If you REALLY watched Orpik play since he turned pro, you’d know he’s a hard hitting, gifted defenseman, not a goon. He can actually play the game. Something you obviously couldn’t do….well anyway. He hits anyone regardless of size. He’s one of the most honest hockey players in the league. Slewfooting IS NOT “everyday give and take thuggery”. It’s dirty and cowardly. Ask any PROFESSIONAL hockey player. It’s a sneak attack. I’ll bet you’ve sucker-punched many a man because you don’t have the guts to face him before throwing a punch. Punching someone while down in hockey is an unwritten no-no. If you really respected hockey, you’d feel the same way. Thugs and cowards don’t sell tickets, players with skill and class do. Self-policing typically takes place after a dirty hit. Orpik’s hit was not dirty. Maybe Erickson should learn to play with his head up, especially in open ice. With your superior knowledge of the game, you should know this. Now go back to watching highlights of the Broadstreet Bullies you moron.

      • greenmtnboy31 - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:33 PM

        Well stated bigrboland, but you do realize you’re responding to a nitwit troll? Given the way he’s been defending Thornton’s cowardice, he’s obviously one of those intelligent Bruins fans with the big beer gut.

      • 7mantel - Dec 13, 2013 at 4:30 PM

        YOU just described your boy Sid when you called Thornton a goon for slew footing Orpik!

    • michiganhockey11 - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:02 PM

      Orpik might be a total and complete D-bag, but the hit he laid was completely clean by the way all of us that play were taught how to play. Is the NHL turning into the NFL in an attempt to mitigate any and all injury from the sport? Sure is. And just like the NFL is becming sissified, so now is the NHL.

      Question for you muckleflugga, at any point of you learning to play the game or even if you coached mites thru midgets, did you ever hear anyone tell players (or you tell players yourself) to “keep your head up”? I get that players can not be looking and get their bell rung. That has been part of the game for decades. Players are faster and stronger now. Do you want to institute a ‘defenseless receiver’ rule in the NHL (which they pretty much have)? Coaches told us for years, ‘keep your head up son”.

      The league and the players have become a joke when they try and ‘demand satisfaction’ from a guy for delivering a legal hit. There was a defenseman that played for the Wings in the 90’s thatwore #16. He delivered huge open ice hits and crushing hip checks. Not a lot of guys ever went after him for cleanly leveling guy. If he was playing in today’s NHL, he’d be kicked out of the league for his hits.

      I don’t follow Pittsburgh, but even if I agreed with your sumation that he’s a giant turd, Orpik’s hit did not deserve retribution, as it was the same type of hit a pee-wee coach tells his player to make. Keep your eyes on his chest and lower your shoulder.

      • greenmtnboy31 - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:35 PM

        God forbid that moron ever coached kids. On second thought, he might have been one of the idiot coaches I regularly toss from games for being, well an idiot.

  12. charastein - Dec 13, 2013 at 1:57 PM

    HA! Chara laugh at little men with little minds.

    Muckleflugga makes some good points. Typical Habs and Pens fans out here talking out of the end that should face the toilet.

    Thornton will get suspended. Big deal. He did what he had to do to send a message.

    You line up a Bruin with malicious intent, you WILL pay a price. Chara promise!

    Got stanchion?

    • toiletclown - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:03 PM

      chara looked like a school girl with his panties twisted how many times crosby smoked him last game. #charasoldandoverrated

      • charastein - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:18 PM

        Please. You make Chara laugh so hard. Chara’s perfect shot put you little boys away last game (did you cry?). Pity you tiny men can’t hold onto a lead with 2:00 mins left. Pity you didn’t show up at all for the Eastern Conference Finals.

        By the way, nice color scheme you got going there in Pittsburgh. Very original.

        Chara have financial degree, Norris trophy, Stanley Cup ring, and can speak 7 languages. Chara smart enough to look down at you and see you for what you are: A flea trying to pork an elephant.

        All of you are just jealous of the mighty Chara and his band of bears. Look up! You will find us at the top of the standings…

        Shall I steal your girlfriend too?

      • greenmtnboy31 - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:38 PM

        It was Chara who Chicago specifically targeted last year and literally went right through him to win the Cup. They said they would and they did and Boston couldn’t do anything about it except keep rining up the minuses for Chara, when they scored 12 straight goals with him on the ice.

        Now, let’s see if the NHL does what it needs to do to send a message to Thornton they way Chicago sent a message to Chara.

      • charastein - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:47 PM


        Oh wait, you poked Chara and ran behind the ref! No wonder Chara can’t hear you!

        Does 1993 seem sooooo long ago? Keep waiting. With a team as small as the Habs, you aren’t competing legitimately or the Cup for a very long time.

        Chara thinks maybe you should tank the rest of the season and shoot for a decent draft pick!

      • jimthebear - Dec 13, 2013 at 4:54 PM

        What was that final score, I forget.

    • bigrboland - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:03 PM

      Chara certainly has a little mind. Look at his body compared to that tiny head. He’s a Neanderthal.

    • joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:53 PM

      Really! So why was he so apologetic after the game?

      • greenmtnboy31 - Dec 13, 2013 at 5:02 PM

        You would be apologetic too if you knew the league was getting ready to hand your a$$ to you.

      • joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 5:03 PM

        Nah! He’s apologetic because he f’d up.

  13. hazlydose - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:00 PM

    Before the conspiracy theorists come out of the woodwork, the skating was part of the concussion protocol. After a concussion, part of the protocol is a light skate to judge if symptoms react to the skate.

  14. toiletclown - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:01 PM

    thornton will be on the flyers soon

    • jpelle82 - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:24 PM

      no. he’s too “honorable” to play for them.

      • michiganhockey11 - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:29 PM


  15. thesportsjudge - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:36 PM

    Orpik was a bum when he played in college, in Boston.

    • greenmtnboy31 - Dec 13, 2013 at 2:40 PM

      Sure he was, that’s why he’s a top defenseman in the NHL, having been drafted in the first round.

    • jpelle82 - Dec 13, 2013 at 3:31 PM

      and why he helped win them a beanpot and national title in 2001 too….come on man.

  16. muckleflugga - Dec 13, 2013 at 3:29 PM


    your question regarding heads-up play is i would assume, rhetorical…regardless, i’ll start by saying i agree with your underlying thesis within context of mood in the current game


    konstantinov was a crushing hitter, but in the manner of kronwall, standing-up players while simply catching them in possession of the puck, but busy with heads down. by way of example…

    when dale hawerchuk was nearing the end of his playing days, vladimir konstantantinov effectively ended his career in the flyers versus red wings cup final, collecting hawerchuk at centre ice in a body destroying hit

    the damaging forces were all hawerchuk’s…a speeding body effectively hitting a brick wall. sadly yet ironically, konstantinov’s career was ended in days following, under circumstance, in a limousine, remarkably similar to those with hawerchuk

    in the day i loved the konstantinov hit, in spite of the fact hawerchuk, a player i admired, was clearly damaged…

    in the day i like most fans, was largely ignorant of the long-term consequences of such hits…because hurt players fell out of the limelight, with residual injuries hidden and sublimated by players themselves and by their teams

    we know better now…

    mike milbury, an experienced hockey hand and hockey analyst, himself a defenseman in the day, has argued orpik proceeded into the eriksson hit with a full and complete view of the coming collision, its probable consequences, and with harm in mind…

    milbury also argued orpik knew eriksson could not make meaningful play on puck, so eriksson’s momentum, direction and inattention could only produce a damaging result, and did

    like the rest of us in the present, orpik is fully cognizant of potential for serious and lingering harm to players victimized in crushing hits while caught in defenceless circumstances

    orpik proceeded regardless

    milbury further suggested, with no small measure of scorn, orpik should have manned-up, accepted thornton’s invitation to fight, after which accepted practise in these matters would have reached a logical conclusion

    orpik did not as they say, answer the bell

    do i agree with milbury…?

    i agree wholly with milbury’s assessment on the conditions leading to hit and damage to eriksson. contextually, i absolutely agree with need for orpik to address thornton’s challenge in the moment

    players and fans cannot have it both ways; on one hand arguing orpik’s hit was clean and within the rules of the game, in spite of universally contrary opinion from active and retired players, then argue on the other hand, there was no obligation imposed upon orpik to defend himself in response to the eriksson hammering

    in the current game, wrapped in mysteries of variable code and muscle-bound ethic, damaging hits, clean or otherwise, demand retribution from teammates of the damaged player…

    orpik contravened three elements in the code: he trashed a defenceless player; he did not man-up and face the consequences; he turtled

    argument orpik was surprised, then knocked-out before he could respond to thornton are bogus…99.9999 percent of players in the league would have fought, scrambled and battled savagely to extricate themselves from thornton’s grappling

    in closing, it is noted niklas kronwall has seemingly curtailed his clobbering hits, though they would appear to be legal by definition in rule. i laud and admire mr. kronwall; he like many, are adjusting their games while having been made aware of harm destructive contact causes

    away from professional hockey’s current context, i hate victimizing contact, i detest fighting, and i abhor violence in a sport where it has been permitted to become the game’s chief engine of commerce

    i have walked those roads, and i know the physically depleting and soul-destroying things that violence in the game brings

  17. joey4id - Dec 13, 2013 at 3:59 PM

    Maybe the NHL will release the details of the suspension just in time for the prime time news. It’s not a bad way to send a message to the world that they won’t tolerate that type of behavior. idk. Just saying.

  18. hairpie2 - Dec 13, 2013 at 4:47 PM

    Well, one thing everyone can agree on is if its more than the 7 games Scott got, that means theres some kind of prejudice against Thornton.

  19. muckleflugga - Dec 13, 2013 at 6:38 PM


    excellent posts, composed and reasoned arguments…well done

    i am further educated…

    the fact that thornton, having seen neal’s kneeing and in so doing, compounded his anger and need for retribution, had not yet occurred to me

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