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Report: Shanahan to conduct rare double discipline hearing with Pittsburgh’s Neal

Apr 16, 2012, 11:43 AM EDT

It’s the kind of ruling that would make Dear Vernon Wormer proud.

According to Sportsnet’s Nick Kypreos, Pittsburgh Penguins winger James Neal will have not one, but two, hearings with NHL discipline czar Brendan Shanahan on Tuesday. It’s like double-secret probation, only not secret and we’re unsure about the probation part!

Neal will be discussing the hits he laid on both Sean Couturier and Claude Giroux during Sunday’s 8-4 loss to the Philadelphia Flyers in Game 3 of the Eastern Conference quarterfinals.

If you haven’t seen them yet, here’s the Couturier hit:

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And here’s the Giroux hit:

Neal could be facing serious ramifications given his potential repeat offender status. Assuming 2009 is within the statute of limitations, his two-game suspension for this hit on Derek Dorsett could come into effect:

Neal was also fined $2,500 in November for high-sticking Montreal defenseman PK Subban.

  1. joshuavkidd - Apr 16, 2012 at 11:47 AM

    #pulledacrosby posts are hilarious!

    • bdawk20 - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:09 PM

      My favorite: “Pee’d Sitting Down” #pulledacrosby

  2. bdawk20 - Apr 16, 2012 at 11:48 AM

    Good, Neal is a disgrace.

    • polegojim - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:02 PM

      I’d say the Pens acted like a bunch of girls on the ice…. but that would be insulting to Girls.

  3. uncledick - Apr 16, 2012 at 11:49 AM

    I think he gets a fine if he had committed either of the hits individually without the other. In my opinion however, the fact that he did both in a single game should result in a suspension.

    • polegojim - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:05 PM

      Yep – stupid dangerous plays.

      They can’t beat Philly straight up, they’re getting embarrassed and instead of playing better, he went head hunting.

    • blackholeson21 - Apr 16, 2012 at 9:03 PM

      Neil said he tried to avoid hitting Couts, but he didn’ see the video of the puck being 20 feet away or of him leaving his feet. I still haven’t gotten over Cheap shot Zubrus taking Handzus out on a similar play. It’s one of the cheapest plays you can make in hockey. My advice to the Flyers is keep your head up even if the puck is nowjere near you, and if possible get your stick and elbows up also.

  4. spiffy53 - Apr 16, 2012 at 11:50 AM

    Asham 5, neal 1. that’s probably fair.

    • bluesrawesome - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:01 PM

      just one for Neal? I would say 3 or 4 which includes both hits. The first one was bad the second one looked like he was really trying to hurt Giroux because he went straight to him/charged him. You could tell Neal he had one thing on his mind because his elbow was up was before he hit Giroux .

      • spiffy53 - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:06 PM

        if weber does not get anything, then the precident has been set. not saying i agree with it, but neal has not done anything like this in a couple of years. if this was the regular season, neal is out 3 (i would agree with you).

      • somekat - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:14 PM

        That precident was blown out of the water with the suspensions handed down yesterday. But these are the Pens, and the NHL will not hurt the Pens any more than they absoloutley have to. As long as them can come up with some excuse (ridiculous or otherwise) to throw out there, they will do everything possible to only suspend Asham

        But the nhl will never have an explanation on the lack of suspension from Weber, because there isn’t one. “I almost suspended him” is the dumbest thing I ever heard. I said it when they hired shanny, he’s just a “fan friendly” face to put out there to carry the Bettman line

    • barkar942 - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:55 PM

      No, Neal will get a $2500 fine because neither player was injured (since the mark for 3 games was set by Shanny on the Hagelin hit w/supposed injury to Alfie who will most likely be playing before Hags suspension is up). Schenn also returned after Asham’s hit, so the in person hearing is probably an excuse because Shanny lent Asham some money and Asham is stiffing him, so now he gets him face to face so “Knuckles” Campbell can rough him up a little!

    • tonyromoisterrible - Apr 16, 2012 at 2:16 PM

      Asham 20, Neal 10.

    • basedrum777 - Apr 16, 2012 at 5:02 PM

      somkat blowing smoke again. The Flyers were handed game one with a phantom goal on an offsides play and yet the fans for Filthadelphia are still complaining that the Pens are the favored child. Get over it. Philadelphia has gotten every break (including extra penalties called on Penguins during scrums). You’re a joke.

      • bigab56 - Apr 17, 2012 at 4:02 PM

        I guess you missed the non-call on the icing that led to the Dupuis goal. You’re getting your a$$es handed to you and that’s your response? That the Flyers are getting all the breaks? You sound just like your captain, a whiney a$$ baby…time for a diaper change, I guess!

  5. imacdane - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:02 PM

    Having seen Neal play for years now, and particularly in this series, I’m sure he’s praying that he gets suspended for the rest of this series aka 1 game. After his cheap shot on Couturier he immediately fled the scene and avoided any involvement in the resulting scrums. Then after his cheap shot on Giroux, he ran and hopped on the bench while the melee ensued. I hope he doesn’t suspended so the Flyers can repay him themselves, but there’s no way he can’t suspended, and nobody is happier about it than he is.

    • soro17 - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:42 PM

      He was the same in junior for the mighty whale of Plymouth. At the Memorial Cup in 2007 he spent the whole tournament hitting guys from behind, slashing ankles and then running away from Lucic and JD Watt. Luckily for him Jared Boll and Tom Sestito stood up for him.

      • thesableo - Apr 16, 2012 at 3:17 PM

        Yup, Neal is a bully and a coward. Last time the Penguins played the Bruins, Neal had a lot of words for our big guys (including Lucic). But in the end he only went with 5′-11″ Andrew Ference..who still knocked out a few of his teeth.

      • aglumac - Apr 16, 2012 at 10:37 PM

        Neal has no missing teeth, and what fight where you watching, Ference got beat, all this smack talk, at the begining of game four Philly should send out whoever they think their tough guy is, assuming Rinaldo, and let him and England get it over with, and let that be it for the fighting b s. By the way England will reck him, and I dont think Philly has gotten the best of one fight yet. Pens should be ashamed, but i guess the you might have won, but we won the fight mentality is where they are at now

    • polegojim - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:00 PM

      He’s going down, period.

    • phil5111 - Apr 16, 2012 at 2:20 PM

      Let’s get a couple of things straight, none of the Penguins are running from anything. Neal was ready for anything and he will be if he plays again. In all the hits, 2 by Neal, one by Asham, the Flyers all feigned injury. None of them missed any time except to go to the locker room and turn around. The funniest one was Giroux who really wasn’t even touched and all his theatrics about trying to fall down. The Pens are playing terrible, are frustrated will lose the series. But unlike the Flyers, they are not crying about anything. And seriously now, it really is ridiculous for anyone either Flyer or fan to try to claim the high road with any of this stuff, and you know it; your guys invented this stuff. So shut up, enjoy the win. Oh, and another thing, with your goalie playing the way he is, you will not get out of the next round, and you know that too.

      • bdawk20 - Apr 16, 2012 at 2:22 PM

        Uhh, show me where the Flyers cried about anything. There have been 0 complaints out of the Flyers locker room. Nice try.

      • epictron1 - Apr 16, 2012 at 4:12 PM

        If you’re a true Pens fan, you better HOPE Neal is suspended. Wayne Simmonds wanted to beat his ass during Game 3, but he took a page out of Cindy Crosby’s book and backed away.

        I used to feel bad for Crosby with his concussion issues, but if someone lays him out during Game 4…. I won’t feel an ounce of compassion.

      • aglumac - Apr 16, 2012 at 10:42 PM

        The Flyers have won like five academy awards during this series, its a joke. And last time Simmonds got froggish, England wrecked him, so i doubt he is instilling fear in anyone. Philly got a cheap goal off of a clear offsides play, at least 3-4 phantom calls from diving and acting like they are injured. You will get ousted inn round 2, let us know when you actually win something significant

      • bigab56 - Apr 17, 2012 at 4:07 PM

        At least we’ll get to the next round. For once, as a Flyer’s fan, I can say our goalie is better than yours! Hahahahahahaha!

      • jiomob - Apr 17, 2012 at 4:54 PM

        I know you’re really upset that your “team to beat” is getting their asses whooped, but you could at least take it like a man, oh wait you’re a penguins fan, so of course you wont. you have 2 of the top players in the nhl, one who hasn’t scored in this series, and one who acts like a 4 year old 90% of the time. While we have 3 rookies who have amassed more goals than half of the penguins team. Bryz has made some of the most amazing stops in the playoffs so far, and although he has let some soft goals in he is still playing well and will only improve as the flyers move to the next rounds.

  6. uncledick - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:03 PM

    I bet he just gets the max fine twice, so $5,000 total. What a joke.

  7. bcisleman - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:08 PM

    Looked to me like he targeted the head both times. I am absolutely disgusted with Bylsma…he is an ABSOLUTE DISGRACE OF A HUMAN BEING. He’s the one who had Cooke run RDP 3X last year and turned his guys loose in the 2/2/11 that led to the 2/11/11 brawlgame. Here he’s whining about Neal being penalized after two headshots when the guy should have been removed from the ice.

  8. somekat - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:08 PM

    Neal should get 4-5 games.
    Asham should get 10 (would be 20 if a flyer did it)
    Adams should get 1 for third man in (This is supposed to be automatic, along with a coach fine, for getting an instigator in the last 10 minutes)

    This being the NHL, and this being the Pens. Much more likely is Neal gets a 5k fine, Asham gets 2 games, Adams gets nothing

    • bdawk20 - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:11 PM

      Adams won’t get nothing, he is building a Hartnell Hair Doll!

  9. nobandwagoners - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:21 PM

    What the heck was Adams doing there jumping Hartnell? Ok, I get it; Crosby was tied up with Hartnell but that was Crosby instigating it. But Adams starts swinging at Hartnell when Hartnell has his back turned to him?

    Wow. I missed a total goon show. I wonder what Bettman is thinking of having this series – the “prize” first round series for US television – turn into such a side show?

    • rdurk86 - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:57 PM

      This is just factually innaccurate. I hate the pens, but I also hate Hartnell about as much. Hartnell skated over to Crosby and grabbed the blade of his stick and held on for a good 20 seconds, which is why Crosby started shoving him, and then Adams came over. That entire scrum started because Hartnell is an idiot.

      • lasallehockey81 - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:12 PM

        Nothing better than someone who states their bias then gives the “facts”. Pretty effective way to never have your point be taken seriously.

      • somekat - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:17 PM

        What are you talking about? Hartnell was going towards Neal, not even looking at Cindy. Cindy grabbed his hair from behind, and Hartnell spun on him. Crosby did his best to run like a girl, but couldn’t. Adams then threw 4 punches while he was still engaged with Cindy.

        What game were you watching?

      • rdurk86 - Apr 16, 2012 at 3:00 PM

        Wow this is some incredible stuff here. I love how people assume bias when you don’t agree with their views. If you’re so insightful, which side am I biased towards? I could care less about either team, I think both have players that act like jackasses.

        The facts lie in video, maybe it doesn’t do it justice, but that’s what I have to go off of other than my recollection from watching the game, which you couldn’t see how the scrum started live since it was off camera.

        At the end of the video, you see them skating next to each other and hartnell grabs the blade of Crosby’s stick and held on, then Crosby starts pulling at him. Maybe Crosby was putting it in his face, which would make sense, but Hartnell holds on to it well after Crosby goes after him. He goated Crosby into it for sure, and it took Adams jumping in to break it up.

        Please inform me if the video is lying and this didn’t actually happen. God forbid if all the crap that happened last night wasn’t 100% the Pens fault.

        I wish Crosby had dropped the gloves with Hartnell, would have been awesome to see those two goofs go at each other.

      • lasallehockey81 - Apr 16, 2012 at 3:30 PM

        I think the assumption of bias comes from where you use the word “hate” … regardless if you said you hate the penguins AND hartnell… that still represents a bias of some kind (you might want to scroll down and find where we define the word for you) .. we’re not children so the “I hate everyone equally” excuse doesnt fly… saying you “hate” him than blaming hartnell makes the argument youre about to make lose all credibility….we’re not assuming bias.. we’re just reading the words you wrote…… just an observation, really….I honestly couldnt care less about how you feel about the situatuon and who started it given what I just explained…

      • rdurk86 - Apr 16, 2012 at 5:29 PM

        So, because I used the word “hate” my opinion is crap? Who isn’t biased in some why on this site? I just want someone to address the overall point that Hartnell goaded Crosby into it. Do I have to be 100% impartial to give an opinion? These boards would be pretty dry if that’s the case.

      • lasallehockey81 - Apr 16, 2012 at 5:43 PM

        Wow….Did I say that nobody should give their opinion? Well, since thats literally the point of this comment section, no, so ill try to explain this to you one more time since youre obviously having some trouble… you stated your bias, aka “I hate Hartnell” THEN.. told someone what they thought about a scrum Hartnell was involved in was “factually inaccurate”, aka WRONG, and gave your opnion of it… MY point was that anyone who preceeds an argument with how much they hate a guy then tells someone theyre wrong about something in dispute is asking for their argument to not be taken seriously… give your “opinion” all you want… just dont expect it to hold much water when you state a bias beforehand… simple enough right?

    • barkar942 - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:01 PM

      Adams was keeping Hartnell from pounding on Cindy’s face! Last thing Cindy wants is another headache for the summer and most of next year! Cindy starts crap, pairs up with “Slugger” Giroux who he knows doesn’t want to hurt his hands by punching, and they play wrestle. But when he and Hartnell start tussling, Adams jumps him to be sure Cindy doesn’t get his brain rattled!

    • sabatimus - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:19 PM

      Hey lasalle: EVERYONE is biased. EVERYONE has a subjective opinion. And there are necessarily facts involved. So what are you saying? You’d rather people DIDN’T admit to their own biases?

      • somekat - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:36 PM

        Hey clown.

        Any chance you had of being taken seriously on anything else went out the window when you said Neal’s first suspension worthy play was clean

      • lasallehockey81 - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:46 PM

        I’m saying when you come out and explicitly say “I hate Hartnell” your take on what the facts are of a situation means nothing. Not sure if you’re new to the word “bias” but the basic definition involves making a decision DESPITE the facts. So, to recap for you, to come out and say I have a bias but here’s the “facts” inherently makes that argument invalid… BC of the definition of bias… Therefore, if you have an obvious bias.. What you’re giving is an opinion based on what your bias allows you to see. Understand now?

    • eyecorporations - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:33 PM

      I was disappointed and thought I missed out on the action when I tuned in during the first period and penalties were being assigned from a large scrum. Turns out I did not miss out on the action.

      Bettman probably loves it, IIRC that game yesterday had huge ratings.

  10. Stiller43 - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:23 PM

    Sadly he definitely deserves a suspension for those.

  11. mclovinhockey - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:52 PM

    Neal 3 games
    Asham 4 games
    Adams 1 game

  12. sabatimus - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:58 PM

    The Couturier hit was clean–no head contact. The Giroux hit was not. And since he’s a repeat offender, he should get 5 games.

    • garrowen - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:29 PM

      Couturier was nowhere near the puck, and Asham clearly left his feet, but other than that it was a clean hit

    • scobie1 - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:30 PM

      CLEAN??? He left his feet? what is he 2 ft tall and he had to jump up to hit him in the chest? AND he lead with his elbow. I hope he gets 10 games for each hit. If a Flyer did that to Crosby, they would have the meeting with Shanny today and they would get 20 games but becuase it’s Beatmans Pens, he probably will get 5 games max.

    • somekat - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:33 PM

      The Couturier hit was clean? Let us count the penalties
      Charging – Obvious
      Interference – Obvious
      Roughing (leaving his feet to deliver a hit) – obvious

      That hit was a lot of things, but clean was not one of them. I’m sure it’s hard to keep track when you just started watching hockey last week, but there are ditry hits to areas besides the head

  13. 2qswing - Apr 16, 2012 at 12:59 PM

    Welcome to The Federal League.

    Hey I hear the Chiefs are moving to Florida.

    • govtminion - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:06 PM

      “Cross check him in the throat and then punch him while he’s down on the ice, let him know you’re there!!!”

  14. lsxphotog - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:05 PM

    Pens showed their true colors yesterday. Just a group of disrespectful players looking to injure Flyers that can score. They are on their way out and are looking to make sure the Flyers don’t go far without some of their scoring talent. Wednesday is going to be ugly when they get eliminated.

    Neal…scumbag moves out there. Asham? You’re just garbage anyway.

  15. hystoracle - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:14 PM

    Wouldn’t be surprised if Wednesday’s officials call every little thing and start handing out 10 minute misconducts early and often.

    • somekat - Apr 16, 2012 at 4:26 PM

      Rinaldo will certainly get one he doesn’t deserve

      Just like he got a double minor he didn’t desere last game, followed by a 10 minute he didn’t deserve last game

      The Pens will get away with everything like they always do.

  16. stakex - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:15 PM

    First of all, 2009 is obviously considered for repeat offender status… so Neal has been suspended once for a dangerous hit as well as fined this year. Hes a two time offender. Not to mention, if he is suspended for the first hit…. he would then be a repeat offender for the second hearing if he wasn’t already.

    Neal is likely looking at 3-5 games at least. This was not one incident that can be explained as a poor choice, or an accident… it was two dirty hits in the same game that both seem like nothing short of attempts to injur other players. There was a clear motive and drive behind these hits that cannot be blamed on a poor split second decision.

    I don’t see how the league can get away without falling on Neal very hard. Hell Haglin, with no record, recieved three games for one over zelous hit during an intense game. If Shanahan sticks to that precedent (a HUGE if), Neal is in trouble.

    • aglumac - Apr 16, 2012 at 10:49 PM

      Only difference is Alfredsson is actually hurt, philly players just act hurt

      • bigab56 - Apr 17, 2012 at 4:29 PM

        So if you attempt to injure, but are unsuccessful, all’s good? So if you get cross-checked in the throat, or elbowed in the head, or charged when the puck is nowhere near you and are man enough to come back, no harm, no foul? Well thought out.

      • aglumac - Apr 18, 2012 at 2:50 PM

        No, Im not condoning anything they did, but when every time someone skates by a Flyer, they fall down like they have been slew footed, it tough on the refs to determine where the real infractions are occuring, didnt Giroux try kicking someone, I guess cause he didnt conect with someones jugular that was cool too. And how often do you think someone hits hard and clean with out the intent to injure, plenty of guys have gotten hurt on clean hits. And how do you know a man intentions, if you can read minds and your trolling boards, you have something wrong, nothing is judged on what a mans intentions are, cause unless he says something first or is completely honest afterward, all you can judge it on is how it looks, and the consequence of it, thats why all your players act hurt every time they get touched, Harts grabs Crosbys stick, Sid pulls to get it back, Harts falls to draw a call, which he does constantly and consitently, and gets pounded and his hair pulled for his acting, good for him, who is the real punk?

  17. bcjim - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:18 PM

    Asham 10.

    Neal at least 3. Possibly 5 and well deserved. What a dope.

    • michiganhockey11 - Apr 16, 2012 at 2:20 PM

      How do you figure 10 for Asham? Not saying I disagree, but the precedent used with Weber was the discipline is much more leniant if there is not an injury as a result of the stupidity? Could Asham have crushed his larynx and killed him? Sure, but he wasn’t really injured so just a fine right?

  18. canuckinamerica - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:25 PM

    LaSalle……originally from Verdun and agree with you wholeheartedly.

  19. michiganhockey11 - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:28 PM

    You know what would be hysterical-Shanny fines him in the first hearing and then suspends him in the second hearing for being a repeat offender!

  20. georgenhofer - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:28 PM

    Crosby is probably wishing he had acted up enough for a suspension, so he wont have to get tuned on wednesday, then shake hands with all the people he doesnt like.

    • tonyromoisterrible - Apr 16, 2012 at 2:28 PM

      I hope the Flyers call a goon up just to whip Cindy’s sally a$$.

    • blackholeson21 - Apr 16, 2012 at 9:47 PM

      Why would he shake hands. I’m sure he will just skate off like he did against the Red Wings.

    • jiomob - Apr 17, 2012 at 5:07 PM

      this is Crosby’s response to them being down 3-0. “For us, the good thing is we haven’t played a full game yet. We’ve love to see the result with a full game”. what are you talking about? you’ve played 3 full games plus the first was decided in overtime.

      Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/Crosby-looks-at-postives-for-0-3-Pens.html#ixzz1sKlk3g2u
      Watch sports videos you won’t find anywhere else

  21. scobie1 - Apr 16, 2012 at 1:34 PM

    Report out of NHL office is Cindy has to come over to Beatmanns house for a sleep over and no one will be suspended. Except for Asham since he is a former Flyer, he has to pay $2,500 for the pizza.

    • blackholeson21 - Apr 16, 2012 at 9:13 PM

      Plus they will also suspend Rinaldo for two games and a player to be named later if Cindy wears his Pengwhyn footie pajamas with the easy access.

  22. nofunleague - Apr 16, 2012 at 2:22 PM

    If this is a mans game why are there so many French in it. Everyone knows the French are big wusses. Hell the Ref yesterday was a French Canadian and should be doing Jr. Hockey.

  23. caps247 - Apr 16, 2012 at 2:31 PM

    Wow, I know this is somewhat irreverent but Ovechkin got 3 games for “leaving his skates” to hit a Pen. That hit didn’t even injure him and the head was not the principal point of contact.

    And here Are Asham and Neal, who are repeat offenders and are notorious dirty players, who even get 2 hearings and only 1 GAME sitting out. Everybody saw what Asham and Neal did, and they should be punished more severely aka the rest of the playoffs.

  24. maplemissy - Apr 16, 2012 at 2:59 PM

    my thoughts? neal knew immediately after the coots hit that he was going to be facing a suspension, so he decided to get the most bang for his buck and take out giroux too.

    • blackholeson21 - Apr 16, 2012 at 9:42 PM

      I can’t believe Neil is going with the story that he tried to avoid hitting Couturier. He is a discrace to the Neil hockey name and should be forced to play in net on Wednesday. Neil was trying to get suspended so he didn’t have to play another debackle in Philly, even though he would probably stop more pucks than Fleurey.

  25. grandpoopah - Apr 16, 2012 at 5:15 PM

    Funny how we have yet to hear a peep out of “Saint Mario” about his team’s obnoxious behavior. I mean, he’s soooooo concerned about player safety that he wrote a letter to the commissioner about it. I guess it’s OK when his players are the ones acting like goons, punks, and p@ssies. But look at fancyboy Cindy the wrong way, and it’s a minimum 3 game suspension. What do you have to say, Mario?

    • blackholeson21 - Apr 16, 2012 at 9:58 PM

      Mario’s hands are tied. On Thursday he will speak to the media in Pittsburgh about how they were too critical of his team and that diving penalties should be eliminated and that Pengwhyne players should have impunity. Or else he will fire Bylsma.

  26. hky15 - Apr 16, 2012 at 7:16 PM

    Where is Mario and his “Garage league” comments now?

  27. flyphileagle - Apr 18, 2012 at 9:05 AM

    I love hockey. I love the time old tradition of the hand shake after a playoff series. I’m just gonna throw this out there.
    What if we just win the game! Then the entire Flyers team skates one lap of the rink tapping the glass to thank the fans and then just goes to the locker room. The Pittsburgh Penguins are not worthy of the HONOR of the handshake! They play with no honor, their coach has no honor, and that is a real shame. The city and the ownership must be embarassed. Skate the rink, tap the glass, get ready for round two!

    • aglumac - Apr 18, 2012 at 3:04 PM

      Ya too bad we didnt do that for the last five years while Philly has been gooning it up, we have one game like that, Philly has years like that, and look who is crying. You even glorify it with the broad street bullies term, and now that it happens to you, your holier than thou, I guess its impossible for anyone to fathom that everything isnt always 100 percent the Pens fault, see you on the golf course a week after us at best, giving up 4 goals a game isnt winning any cup.

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