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Ugly Winter Classic brawl generates a police search

Jan 5, 2012, 12:44 AM EDT

It’s no secret that there’s some genuine hatred among some fans involved in the New York Rangers-Philadelphia Flyers rivalry, but rarely does it get as stomach-churning as it did outside Geno’s Steaks on Jan. 2. The Philadelphia Police Department is on the lookout for several Flyers fans who savagely attacked Rangers fans outside of the famous eatery.

In fact, there’s actually low-quality video of the brutal attack, which you can see below via Broadstreet Hockey/Barstool Sports. (Warning: there’s some truly disturbing violence in this footage, so beware.)

The Newark Star-Ledger’s Tom Haydon reports that one of the Rangers fans was an off-duty police officer from Woodbridge, N. J.

This situation was ugly and strange enough based on the video alone, but it took another odd twist when someone (sort of?) came forward as a guilty party on Broadstreet Hockey’s Facebook page. As usual with these situations, the person in question went from inexplicably boasting about the crime to backtracking then finally deleting whatever he could in the process. (You can follow the bizarre and disturbing series of events here.)

It’s incidents like these that make sports fans – not just ones from Philly – look really bad. Wearing an opposing team’s jersey in “enemy territory” should be a question of personal style, not a major gamble for your safety.

  1. ready4jets - Jan 5, 2012 at 12:59 AM

    I thought Philly got rid of Carcillo and his gutless cheapshots.

  2. crnvic847 - Jan 5, 2012 at 1:00 AM

    Philadelphia sports fans have to be the most classless fans in all of sports. I was in Philly about a month after they lost to the Blackhawks in the Stanley Cup. I was in a bar wearing a Blackhawks hat and all night people were talking trash and eyeing me down. Their fans are classless and very sore losers. I hope these pricks get theirs.

    • spiffy53 - Jan 5, 2012 at 10:39 AM

      as a flyers fan, please do not lump us all together. yes, we have our fair share of idiots. maybe more sometimes. for a lot of these morons, the sporting event is secondary to the anger they feel with the path of their own lives. i hope these clowns get the book thrown at them.

      • gwylie1 - Jan 5, 2012 at 12:17 PM

        There has been too many of these inceidents at Philly sporting events. You all get lumped in now

    • skimmer0220 - Jan 5, 2012 at 11:07 AM

      Philly wasn’t the one that made classless ads about Pronger, Philly media never took a shot at one of Chicago’s players during the Cup Finals but Chicago had the bright idea of putting Pronger on some figure skater’s legs and you call Philly classless? Vancouver rioted after they lost game 7 to Boston and you call Philly classless? you may need to re-think what classless fans mean besides Chicago would have never one had they not been 5 mil over the salary cap, but still you though a month would have been enough time for us to get over the loss in the cup finals? hell I’m still pissed about 97′ against the Wings and that was almost 15 years ago! so of coarse were still pissed about 1 soft goal in a series witch Philly dominated, if you were in a bar now with a Chicago hat on I’d still give you crap about it cus it all boils down to one thing what players would you have given up to be within the salary cap? So get over yourself cus Chicago never should have won it in the first place

  3. shavodog1 - Jan 5, 2012 at 1:15 AM

    Typical Philly dueche bags… And people wonder why everyone hates these so called “fans”

  4. cakrywyj - Jan 5, 2012 at 1:18 AM

    Not at all defending these people but what exactly did you expect by wearing Blackhawks stuff to a bar full of Flyers fans during a Stanley Cup game? A pat on the back? A hug? Come on.. You got your feeling hurt… Big deal…Id feel bad for you if you got punched in the mouth…. But if you can’t take a few smart ass comments than I suggest just going sans hat next time lol.

    • miketoasty - Jan 5, 2012 at 9:41 AM

      Read the man’s post, he said that he went to this bar A MONTH after the Stanley cup finals, I disliked the Red Wings in 2008 after the Pens lost the cup but wouldn’t be a dick to anyone wanting to support their team in Pittsburgh, it’s called respect.

      • cmutimmah - Jan 5, 2012 at 9:56 AM

        OK – Being Eyed and the occasional trash talk is not a big deal. It’s not even related to this article. Trash talking is a big part of being a fan of sports. But when you do what is shown in this video, which is blatant attempted murder, especially after the Brian Stow crap from this spring, it’s a completely different animal.

        I thought the Brian Stow story would be a lesson to this country. I guess there are some people a few bricks short of a load that will never learn.

  5. crnvic847 - Jan 5, 2012 at 1:35 AM

    If you read my comment correctly it states that I was in Philly a month after the Flyers lost to the Hawks in the Stanley Cup Finals. I was not wearing a Hawks hat during the Stanley Cup Finals games. If I did that I would totally expect the trash talking. And yes my feelings were truly hurt with the comments that were made :’-(

    • travishenryskid - Jan 5, 2012 at 12:30 PM

      I’m no Philly fan, but it’s pretty obvious you did this to ruffle some feathers. And if you didn’t think you were going to, you have zero common sense.

    • trigzter - Jan 5, 2012 at 2:41 PM

      your feeling were hurt? big freakin deal dude.

  6. nflinla - Jan 5, 2012 at 1:35 AM

    Oh man they must be from LA.

  7. nflinla - Jan 5, 2012 at 1:36 AM

    If this happened in LA it would be National News..

  8. cakrywyj - Jan 5, 2012 at 1:44 AM

    Even if it’s a month after… Doesn’t make you any more intelligent if you weren’t expecting something to be said… Sounds like you can’t take care of yourself.. That’s the most disappointing aspect if it all… You told a story where literally nothing happened just to try to jump on a hater bandwagon…that’s pretty dramatic lol

  9. theagitator1691 - Jan 5, 2012 at 1:52 AM

    And whats it that those philly fans say? they would never act like those dodgers fans. philly fans are morons simple as that grow up you dumb shits.

  10. crnvic847 - Jan 5, 2012 at 2:00 AM

    My point is that I have been to bars in northern Wisconsin wearing Bears gear, I’ve been to Detroit wearing Blackhawks gear, I’ve been to Minnesota wearing White Sox and Bears gear and have never ever had anything said to me ever! Philadelphia fans are a bunch of idiots who can’t handle a loss. I always welcome opposing fans and make them feel comfortable when visiting as I know well enough that it’s sometimes uneasy showing up to an opponents stadium in the opposing teams jersey and it shouldn’t have to be that way. I’m sensing that you are a Philly fan “lol.”

  11. cakrywyj - Jan 5, 2012 at 2:17 AM

    I agree with you that it shouldn’t have to be that way… But to try and tell me that things not only like this but also things on a much smaller level like you experienced don’t happen in other cities is amazingly ridiculous and ignorant… For all the seemingly positive experiences you’ve had in “enemy territory” that sound like a trip to Disneyland.., I can give you stories of the exact opposite stuff going on in places like New York, Jersey, Boston, DC and Florida…Vancouver almost burned their own city to the damn ground after a loss for christ sake…and yeah I am from Philly and no I don’t beat the shit out of Rangers fans while waiting for a Cheesesteak… But to say it just happens here is asinine…

  12. 1943mrmojorisin1971 - Jan 5, 2012 at 3:21 AM

    What a bunch of clowns. Not doing much to help the reputation of Philly sports fans. Yes, I know there are idiots in every fan base, but that doesn’t change the fact that there sure seems to be no shortage of them in Philly.

  13. bbk1000 - Jan 5, 2012 at 5:49 AM

    Unfortunately I’m not surprised, yet another in a long list of stupid and cowardly acts by Philly fans..

  14. 8man - Jan 5, 2012 at 6:58 AM

    As soon as I saw the warning about the video I was hooked…

  15. dutchman1350 - Jan 5, 2012 at 7:16 AM

    Stupid is, as stupid does.

  16. xxakshunxx - Jan 5, 2012 at 7:18 AM

    Anyone that wears opposing teams gear into Philly and runs their mouth is asking for it..I don’t agree to the fighting but Christ, if you come to the city just be nice and people won’t give a crap what youre wearing..But if you’re from out of town and want to act tough in front of your friends you’re usually gonna get what you’re looking for..

    • 8man - Jan 5, 2012 at 8:11 AM

      That is a good point. I’m sure if the conversation started with something like this from Rangers fan, “Uh, great game. You guys did a fine job of hosting the event,” it might have gone differently.

      Still no excuse for that behavior. If you run your mouth when you win, you have to be able to take it when you lose. I will say this, if I had gone, I would have worn my Bruins gear and not expected any problems.

      • realitypolice - Jan 5, 2012 at 2:08 PM

        I’ve read some other stories that said that the Flyers fans paid one of the homeless people who was your windows at intersections to walk up to the Rangers fans who were minding their own business and spray them in the face with his spray bottle.

    • rarelyshaves - Jan 5, 2012 at 1:19 PM

      jesus christ you act like anyone would optionally go to philadelphia.

      its not everyone else’s problem that none of you could get a GED and are stuck in the rust belt.

      so be nice to US, your superiors, when we grace you with our presence

  17. bostonbornandbred - Jan 5, 2012 at 8:10 AM

    No no no. This couldn’t have happened it Philadelphia It had to have happened in Boston since my city is “trash” and classless.. Where are all the big mouths now? Disgusting

    • kellyb9 - Jan 5, 2012 at 9:22 AM

      Yeah… nobody has ever fought with Yankees fans in the city of Boston ::rolls eyes::. It happens everywhere, and it shouldn’t. These thugs are basically gangs fighting over something as petty as colors. Serious sports fans should cut ties with goons like these.

      • bostonbornandbred - Jan 5, 2012 at 11:49 AM

        Name me a national story about a Boston fan like you have in Philly? Or California for that matter… Give me a break… I’m actually a phillies fan but I’m sick of their fans acting like jackasses then pointing the fingers at everybody else

  18. lrg51 - Jan 5, 2012 at 8:18 AM

    There is NO EXCUSE for anyone in this video. One should expect that you could wear your teams sweater to the game and to and from the stadium without being assaulted. BUT, you’re walking to Genos after the game brandishing your Rangers Jersey? You’re just asking for trouble and I don’t see how you would think otherwise. Stupid. Just studied!

    Of course, everyone who opens their mouth in this video are obviously behaving like street thugs. Then again… I lived in Philly in the 70’s-80’s and I see nothing has really changed. Bad ass fans… in any pro league.

    No one fighting in the video looks innocent. A bunch of boys out in the night after the game looking for trouble. That’s as clear as a bell…

    • lrg51 - Jan 5, 2012 at 8:20 AM

      Part of my comment should read… Stupid. Just Stupid!

  19. clavette - Jan 5, 2012 at 8:28 AM

    Haha typical philly fans 3 on 2 fight. Justin tuck said after the giants beat the eagles earlier this season that an 8 year old spit on the giants bus and flipped them off.

    What do u expect from the white trash capitol of america?

    Still this isn’t as bad as the beating I saw in boston in 2004 after a canadiens/bruins playoff game. 2 canadiens fans running their mouths got severely beaten in fro nt of boston police right outside the td garden.

  20. dcowboyfan - Jan 5, 2012 at 9:30 AM

    I have the ” unfortunate ” luck of living in the suburbs outside of Filthadelphia. Watching this is the reason why i NEVER set foot in that god awful city…That place is nothing but a bunch of loose animals just looking for trouble…And the ” fans ” always complain about getting a ” bad reputation ” .
    What a joke…..They should build a big wall around that ” dump ” of a city and let them all beat the heck out of each other…
    Pretty sad when you cant even wear a jersey, hat, or anything else for fear of losing your life !!!!
    Did anyone else notice that it was a bunch of fans against one or two Ranger fans ??
    In a word..Typical !!!
    Philly, your fans and your teams blow !!!!!

  21. cruuuzcontrol - Jan 5, 2012 at 9:32 AM

    You idiots who blame the victims need to get your head examined. No one deserves to get jumped and beat down like this. NO ONE.

    It shouldn’t be a matter of taking your life into your hands when you just want to cheer your team. I see plenty of Philly fans who go into other towns, wear their garb, and talk trash, but when it’s opposing fans in their backyard… Then it’s a different story. So the whole “you shouldn’t expect to Philly and talk smack and walk out unharmed” thing IS NOT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS REASONABLE!

  22. paultripp - Jan 5, 2012 at 9:45 AM

    Doesnt surprise me one bit that someone jumping in to completely throw an otherwise fair fight would be a cop. Some of the most cowardly people on earth wear a uniform. You philly fans should be embarasses that even tho you outnumber the rangers fans 10-1 you still cant fight fair. Sucker punchin guys and kickin them 3-1 while theyre on the ground.. Youre all a bunch of pussies. Full on scared little bitches just embarassing urselves ur town and ur team.

  23. realitypolice - Jan 5, 2012 at 10:07 AM

    I think it’s safe to say that between Tort’s statements after the game and this ugly nonsense, neither of these teams will have to worry about being part of the Winter Classic again anytime soon. BTW- anyone who thinks that wearing an opposing team’s jersey warrants getting beaten in the street needs to grow up and get some perspective. It’s a game, fools.

  24. phillie4life - Jan 5, 2012 at 10:47 AM

    What people don’t understand about Philadelphia is that we are a die hard sports city. Here in philly you have five year olds making the entire phillies roster, 75 year olds taking about football on a tuesday during their bingo. Anywhere you go in the city out suburbs, the city is taking sports. I like to travel to away games every year and do wear my philadelphia gear and yes I do expect to get heckled. Its bragging and defending your team.

    • clavette - Jan 5, 2012 at 10:52 AM

      White trash capital of the united states. There’s a reason every one hates your city

    • realitypolice - Jan 5, 2012 at 10:54 AM

      What does any of that have to do with beating fans of opposing teams half to death at a cheesesteak stand?

    • comeonnowguys - Jan 5, 2012 at 1:54 PM

      So to be a true fan you have to bludgeon fans of other teams? To come from the side and level a guy that was already staggering from being beat up 1 vs. 3? If you’re that much of a diehard fan, you should be condemning this, not defending this.

      You’re not helping your town or your collective fandom at all.

  25. byrds71 - Jan 5, 2012 at 10:49 AM

    I grew up in SW philly and spent alot of time in Port Richmond where my half-sister grew up and I now live 2 counties west, and I do not miss it one bit. I understand, while not excusable what happened, it is not very wise to put yourselves in that position, you have no clue how dangerous it is to come into an opposing team’s neighborhood, like South Philly,donning the opponents colors, and expect to be out of harm’s way. People can cry, complain and talk tough all they want about it on these websites, but if you have some common sense, and a little less bravado, then you will realize to not put yourself in that situation. Why would you think otherwise? Have some sense, these people are animals, and are proud of it, because it is all they know. The cliques in these neighborhoods are pretty much small gangs, and they pride themselves on beat downs of anyone who is a rival or opposing clique, and they do not descriminate between Ranger Fans, the Boys from Cohocks Field, or some other neighborhood. My father told me countless war stories growing up, throughout the city. Some of these guys, ironically, think like this is Gangs of New York, and try to live it.

  26. rabidbillsfan - Jan 5, 2012 at 10:55 AM

    Just to comment, stuff like this doesn’t happen in other cities. Being from Buffalo, I have attended games where emotions could get out fo hand. I have sat in the 100-200-300 levels of both the Ralph and now the F’N center and can tell you this isn’t normal behavior from fans, this is even bad for canadians… Jk. The worst games I have ever been to was the most recent Philly playoff series and the Eagles game at the Ralph. Flyers fans were throwing beer at kids with Sabres jerseys, I counted nearly a dozen orange jerseys escorted from their seats, all the while bashing the security guard and cursing the world. Even after the game, that they won, guys were banging on hoods of cars, throwing cans at the arena, It was ridiculous. So, sure, you all may not be the same, but there seems to be ignorant fools who call themselves “Philly Fans” than those who can be civilized and enjoy the sport as a game, the way it is supposed to.

  27. rabidbillsfan - Jan 5, 2012 at 11:00 AM


    You do know all cities with professional sports, ecspecially with more than one, do that?

  28. twitter:Chapman_Jamie - Jan 5, 2012 at 11:08 AM

    If I ever go to a game in Philadelphia and decide to go do something as simple as eating after I am going fully concealed. Any of these douchebags try to do this to me, they are getting shot in the face. All it takes is one.

  29. dowhatifeellike - Jan 5, 2012 at 11:27 AM

    That wasn’t a fight, that was assault and battery. I hope those goons go to prison so they can see what it’s like to be on the receiving end of a beatdown.

    • rivestar - Jan 9, 2012 at 3:44 PM

      Has anyone seen the entire video? Actually The one guy in the Rangers jersey shoved his combatant 1st and then another guy in a Ranger jersey sucker punches the same combatant in the side of the face. The Flyer guy evidently can take a punch and beat them both down. Did it go overboard? Yes! but The “victim” brought some of this on himself. It just goes to show you how keen editing can affect the way video is viewed. Just to be firm, This is despicable behavior and Those Fans in The Flyers Jersey went too far and should answer for it but The Rangers Fans, “assaulted” were game for the fight and struck first, doing some battering themselves before they themselves were struck down. I guess, It just didn’t end the way they thought it would.

  30. cakrywyj - Jan 5, 2012 at 11:27 AM

    @Rabidbillsfan… Wait, so what you’re saying is since you’ve never seen it in Buffalo it never happens in any other city at all? Well I’m from Philly and I’ve never seen something like this happen with my own eyes.. But apparently with this video posted on the Internet.., I can see that it does. You also might want to read a comment in this very thread about Boston fans beating a Canadien fan in front of Boston police if you’re looking for at least one instance. Oh, and Brian Stow… Yeah, that happened too. Or maybe it didn’t… Since you didn’t see it in Buffalo.

  31. dcowboyfan - Jan 5, 2012 at 11:42 AM

    In Re to phillie4life’s comment……In a word, youre a complete Douche !!!!!!
    Youre probably one of the A-holes in the video !!!!

  32. mikey4058 - Jan 5, 2012 at 11:56 AM

    This shit happens everywhere If you don’t like Philly don’t come.

    • rarelyshaves - Jan 5, 2012 at 1:30 PM

      the more important point: please, mike, stay in philly.

      never leave.

      not like youll ever have the economic or mental capabilities to do so, but you get my point.

      if you reply ill send you a copy of hooked on phonics, on me.

      • comeonnowguys - Jan 5, 2012 at 1:56 PM

        And if you could take a radioactive bath and sterilize yourself, all the better.

  33. cakrywyj - Jan 5, 2012 at 12:36 PM

    @boston.. So, again, just because the media didn’t cover it.. It didnt happen? If someone didn’t record this with their phone you wouldn’t have any idea it happened at all. I’m sure you don’t actually believe a Yankees fan has never been punched in the mouth in Boston but the incident wasn’t in the news, right? You’re not that ignorant, right? You and your boy from Buffalo up there should get together and talk about your shared view of the world: if I don’t see it or the media didn’t tell me it happened its not real. Very intelligent

  34. cakrywyj - Jan 5, 2012 at 12:47 PM

    And are you seriously asking me for a story like this that happened in California? Surely someone who relies on the media for their point if view of the world has heard about Brian Stow by now…. Ya know the guy who was almost beaten to death outside of Dodger Stadium… No, not Geno’s steaks. Dodger Stadium. Ya know, in California?

  35. cakrywyj - Jan 5, 2012 at 1:35 PM

    Isn’t it ironic that someone who, when given the choice of any log in name they wanted, thought the name “rarelyshaves” was clever and funny is talking about other peoples mental capacity?

    • comeonnowguys - Jan 5, 2012 at 2:05 PM

      I hope you stretched before making that long of a reach. Otherwise, it is a good way to get hurt.

  36. rexadelphia8 - Jan 5, 2012 at 2:27 PM

    You girls are a bunch of pussies, someone got knocked out and you all cry, then u watch UFC and cheer. It’s a fight bitches, get a fucking clue and don’t come to Philly then, sorry for our passion

    • dowhatifeellike - Jan 5, 2012 at 2:37 PM

      That wasn’t a fight, that wasn’t passion, that was a crime. The Rangers fans clearly had no intention of fighting, but the Philly fans couldn’t handle the trash talk and resorted to using their fists.

    • comeonnowguys - Jan 5, 2012 at 2:46 PM

      Keep telling yourself its because you’re so passionate, and not because you see superior numbers in the area and can’t think of a comeback.

      • vanchuk - Jan 5, 2012 at 10:49 PM

        bunch of cowards. it was 2 guys going toe to toe, then once the ranger fan in the callahan jersey got taken down some pussy in a Jagr jersey, starts pummeling him. Tough guy, real tough guy…. just as tough as the guy in the Giroux jersey is. Complete sucker punch on “Callahan” who is obviously dazed and has no chance of affecting the fight at all. Any self respecting Philly citizen would be denouncing an incident like this outright and turning these cowards in. Almost as bad as the riots in Vancouver after the finals last year. Let’s hope that there’s an effort in Philly to find these gutless invertebrates equal to the clean-up effort in Vancouver.

    • hockey94 - Jan 7, 2012 at 2:41 PM

      Thats A horrible comparison first of all. and 4 on 2 is not a fight thats just cowardly. by saying any of that you make you and your beloved city of ” BROTHERLY LOVE” look like a bunch of morons. Which is not all that hard anyway since you have a statue of a fake character from a movie in your city. Oh wait you do know Rocky wasn’t real, or did i spoil it for you, go worship him some more.Your city,Sports teams and Fans are all a disgrace. Beat it.

  37. cakrywyj - Jan 5, 2012 at 2:32 PM

    Would the moronic, fake machismo Philly fans please refrain from commenting…. You’re not helping by giving your ridiculous opinion that the UFC and people waiting for a cheesesteak are even remotely related or that sports fans serene to get drilled in the mouth… You’re making the rest of us look just as bad as the idiots in the video thank you.

    • comeonnowguys - Jan 5, 2012 at 2:48 PM

      If anyone clicks the links and views the comments at the bottom of the BSH article on this, the difference is evident enough. No worries.

  38. cakrywyj - Jan 5, 2012 at 2:37 PM

    Deserve* to get drilled in the mouth

  39. crnvic847 - Jan 5, 2012 at 2:43 PM

    @skimmer0220: And the Flyers should have never been in the finals that year to begin with. And yes I am calling Philly fans “classless.”

    • cakrywyj - Jan 5, 2012 at 4:44 PM

      youre right… a team that wins 3 series to get to the Cup has no business going to the Finals at all.. come back from 0-3 to win a game 7 on the road when trailing 3-0 in that said game 7? yup.. no business at all… Good logic

  40. cakrywyj - Jan 5, 2012 at 3:33 PM

    Hmm this is interesting. Apparently all you have to do is google “fan beaten” and you get things like this gem…

    A diehard Jets fan was savagely beaten on his own turf by a drunken gang of Kansas City Chiefs fans after their team was trounced on Sunday — with one of the assailants barking “F–k New York” and “You all deserved what happened on 9/11!” the victim’s distraught family told The Post.

    But wait… That’s not a marine in Philly. More importantly.. Where’s the story bashing Chiefs fans???

  41. cakrywyj - Jan 5, 2012 at 4:09 PM

    Oh look… For the guy who said this never happens in Boston. From

    Several Vancouver Canucks fans seeing Game 3 in Boston Monday night say they were verbally and physically assaulted by Bruins supporters when the on-ice violence spilled over the boards, first into the stands and then onto the street.

    Canucks fans who spoke to CTV News claim the crowd inside TD garden was outraged by their presence, saying some took out their anger on the Vancouver fans who traveled thousands of kilometres to Beantown to watch.

    Rob Young said the tension inside the arena was so high that taunts quickly turned to violence, with one Bruins fan head butting a nearby Vancouver supporter.

    “The Boston guy went for a head butt and head butted one of the Vancouver fans and it started a big kafuffle right away,” Young told CTV News.

    “And to the credit of Vancouver fans, they backed away and then the cops came pretty quickly.”

  42. eagleswineagleswin - Jan 5, 2012 at 7:52 PM

    What we learned from watching that video.

    Former Marines can not take a punch!

    • jimeejohnson - Jan 7, 2012 at 12:41 PM

      What we learned from reading your post: Philadelphia fans are dumb a$$holes!

    • thesublimeylimey - Jan 10, 2012 at 1:21 PM

      Go and challenge the first marine you see, then put the video up on youtube. Should be amusing as he smears you across a wall.

  43. rivestar - Jan 9, 2012 at 3:51 PM

    Those guys in the Rangers jersey’s were looking for trouble and they found it. they threw the 1st punches and sucker punches and got beat down. I guess you could say they got out- “sucker punched”. You reap what you sow.

  44. thesublimeylimey - Jan 10, 2012 at 1:19 PM

    Hockey fans aren’t exactly the intellectual elite of north america. They see guys fighting on the ice, they want to prove they’re just as tough (of course they aren’t). It makes no difference what city they’re from, some people are just insecure morons who need to prove their supposed manliness.

    Just look at some of the childish comments on here for proof of that.

    Monkey see, monkey do.

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